It just so unfortunately happens however that the Soviet Union was not only overlooked by the Western Allies, but were actually supported by them. I'm sure you're aware of the shameful history of American realpolitik support of 'friendly' dictators, but the worst example of American support for dictators was their alliance with the mass murdering monster Stalin from 1941 - 1945.
especially not only because one dictatorship that killed even more people won against another.
Also the western allied were no angels, do you really think they fought against Germany because of jews?
It was about power and money, the USA, France and Britain were no bit less racist than Germany.
That they fought for the jews or human rights is a nice propaganda shit in the years after the war.
And the bombing holocaust on german cities, the Rheinwiesenlager, the expulsion of 15 million, mass raping,
stealing of territories and so on sounds rather similar to the awful nazi crimes? So is there really a white and black side?
Winner write history, loser are always the satanic evil in their eyes.
You ask if the Western allies fought for the Jews. Let me ask you. Does it really matter? Does it really matter whether the allies really cared about the Jews?
I like to think that they didn't just fight for the Jews, but rather they fought for democracy. What ever the reason the UK, France, USA, Canada went to war against Germany, it was a heroic effort to liberate whatever part of Europe they could from Nazi tyranny, so I say it doesn't matter what they fought for, because we both know which side any Jew would support.
And please, don't try to bunch Soviet war crimes with American war crimes during World War II, since the Soviets and their communist clients carried out the sort of crimes no other nation carried out, and that the Americans and Soviets weren't really allies as shown by the Cold War division that followed immediately after. You're moral equivalence between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union is well founded. Yes, it was the Soviet Union that annexed territory, carried out the largest ethnic cleansing and the largest mass rape of civilians in all of history.
But the war crimes committed by the Western allies is hardly in the same league as those carried out by Hitler. It doesn't even come close. Hell, (West) Germany was one of largest recipients of American aid through the Marshall plan after World War II. That kind of moral equivalence was one of the main reasons the Pope said absolutely nothing about the Holocaust and refused to excommunicated any Nazi Catholics.
I'm not sure how you'd respond to this, but if I was alive during the period, I'd support the Western allies without question, in spite of the crimes committed, because no amount of crimes committed by the allies can change the fact that Germany from 1939 - 1945 really was on the wrong side of history, while the allies were on the right side.
since 1000 years part of the German Reich. They said the historical border of Bohemia must be saved...but the historical border
of Hungary was not important to them, which shows their arrogant attitude.
You know that Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way round? no? Hitler definitly wanted to attack the communists
no doubt, but he never wanted a world war with the west. So Britain and France caused another world war because of a tiny regional conflict
about West-prussia in Poland, a region stolen after ww 1. where 2/3 of the peoples are Germans. What a joke and you believe tha propaganda
from the always alone guilty Germany, hahaha XD
They definitly did not fight for jews, and if you would follow the news, America is not a real democracy itīs an oligarchy and a state that spies
and causes wars by sinking their own ships, to gain more power. The western states were treaten extremely good by the Germans btw.,
the french officers were treaten with highest respect, hundred thousands of french women fell in love with german soldiers.
You still believe in that history channel shit about "evil" german soldiers, pf they were completely normal men as anyone.
I just wanna admit, the Americans did horrible war-crimes, too, and a nation that is based on a race genocide has not a bit of a right
to point with the finger at Germany. Also Australia not btw. (aborigines). The number of killed doesnīt matter, the same shit was done
by any big nation, so they better shut up about spreading stereotypes on Germany.
Itīs very controverse if a victorious Germany in the 2. ww would be good or bad, it matters for who good and for who bad.
The jews and many east-slavics wouldīve been killed, thatīs obvious. The rest of the Europeans would live on like always,
and not face a catastropic fertility rate and mass-immigration like now. Everyone has to do decide for himself what he thinks about it.
I definitly judge their crimes as evil. The result of the war was not really satisfieing tho.
Czechslovakia being an artificial state to damage Germany is a statement that has no evidence behind it, and Hitler clearly wanted more than just Sudetenland as clearly shown by Germany's invasion of the non-German Czechslovakia early 1939. Not sure about Czechslovakia's border with Hungary; not concerned about it either. It's a non-sequitur argument that doesn't change anything about Germany's imperialist ambitions back then.
Well Britain and France obviously had to take action against Hitler after September 1939. They did nothing to stop the German invasion of Sudetenland in 1938 when the German military was much weaker, hoping that it would end there. It didn't. Germany later took over the non-German parts of Czechslovakia as well in 1939. They did nothing to stop that either, so Hitler than invaded Poland thinking the same would happen. Obviously the war declarations came this time, but even then Britain and France didn't actually do much to help Poland, and France even gave up a brief offensive against Germany. Regional war about West-Prussia in Poland that was stolen from Germany after World War I? More like territory stolen by Prussia from Poland after the third Polish partition. You must not be too fond of Poland aren't you?
Even then, Hitler obviously wanted more than to just reclaim pre-1918 Imperial German territory.
How does a 'regional war in German territories stolen from Poland' explain the existence of the General-Government, the occupation of Polish territory not previously controlled by Germany before 1918? How does that explain the cultural destruction of Poland? How does that explain Hitler's mad decision to end the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and invade the Soviet occupied territories in Poland? How does that explain the Hitler's decision to invade Belgium, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg, all of which were neutral states before 1939? How does it explain Hitler's invasion of Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia in 1941? The fact is Germany started and escalated World War II in Europe, and posed such a threat to the rest of the world that it took several allied armies from several nations to crush the Nazis.
It might be a bit hard for you to grasp as a German nationalist, but everyone else who knew about World War II at the time would've definitely supported the allies. Did the allies really fight to save the Jews? I wouldn't know about it. Does it matter? No. Anyone living outside of the Axis powers (and some living inside) would've supported the allies. The Polish resistance who fought to free their country from the Nazi yoke would've supported the allies. The British civilians who were being bombed by German bombers would've supported the allies. The Russian soldiers ready to defend the motherland would've supported the allies. Even the French were grateful for their liberation from Nazi tyranny by the allies in 1944.
And so you bring up the proposition that most German soldiers who fought in the Wehrmacht were actually nice people. Can you actually prove this? There's different sides to different stories, and the Wehrmacht were known to commit a lot of war crimes. Still, like many other arguments you bring up, what kind of people the soldiers were is simply irrelevant. It's irrelevant because Nazi leadership, you know, the guys who actually held power, were made up of monsters like Bormann, Brunner, Eichmann, Goebbels, Goeth, Hess, Heydrich, Himmler and Hitler. No nice guys in sight. I won't comment on relations between French civilians and soldiers and German soldiers either, because it's simply irrelevant.
It's a well established fact that the Russian soldiers who served in the Red Army didn't do so because of any loyalty towards Stalin, but because of their devotion to defending the motherland from the fascist invaders. But does that change the fact that the Soviet leadership invaded and occupied Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania pre-1941, and the rest of Eastern Europe post-1944? You're not one to hesitate when it comes to criticising the Soviet Union.
True, the American democratic system isn't perfect, but to say that America isn't a real democracy isn't a fact, but opinion, considering that they have the world's oldest constitution.
Any criticisms of the American system can easily be used to criticise any other country in the world. I hear the EU has too much power over its member states, and unlike Obama, no one ever voted Barroso into power. Not that it really matters though, because it's an irrelevent topic. And talking about NSA surveillance is not only irrelevent, it has no place in a World War II discussion (the NSA didn't exist during World War II).
So you dare to call out the United States and Australia for their poor treatment of their indigenous populations. Colonialism might have been a major cause of suffering in the 19th century, but by the 20th century much of the crimes against indigenous people had ended. In the 20th century, there was no genocide against anyone caused by Australia and the USA. In the 20th century they had more freedom than Germany did under Hitler. In the 20th century, only the Soviet Union could rival Germany for most amount of suffering caused.
What makes the Nazi Genocide so unique isn't just the number killed (6 million Jews + other Holocaust victims like Slavs, Romani and the disabled), but the number killed in the span of just 6 years, and the need for allied armies to put an end to it.
It seems you have a habit of beating the allied nations for their crimes as a way of discrediting their sacrifices they made destroy the Nazis. Should I point out that mentioning indigenous mistreatment is actually irrelevant? It didn't happen during 1939-1945, and it didn't even happen in the 20th century. It's not only irrelevant, it's ad hominem.
Your last point is about the possible scenario of German victory during World War II. You acknowledge that the Nazis wanted to exterminate the undesirables, but you think that the Western Europeans would've simply accepted their lives under Nazi tyranny. The only Western Europeans that might have accepted the reduction of a continent to a prison would've been those living in neutral countries uncontrolled by the Nazis, like Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland. No dispossessed citizen would've completely accepted German rule over France, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece and Yugoslavia as long as people like Churchill still existed to keep fighting against tyranny.
and that whole Böhmen (Bohemia) was for 1200 years always part of the German Empire?
It was not about the allied to change the map of Europe in the east, they were far away,
so it was only an agitation against everything German, by nationalistic hate.
"Invasion of Sudetenland", it was not an invasion, it was the treaty of Munich that officially allowed
the Germans to annex it, because even Brits and French accepted it is rightfully and ethnically german.
I donīt care what Poland once possessed and where political fantasy border lines existed, it mattered
who lives there and in West-Prussia lived Germans, so it was never rightfully polish. I give a shit about
political borders, where my people live and created the native culture, is my land.
I said nothing against that, yes he wanted to conquer the east, but as long as he conquered rightful german
land it was ok and no reason to declare war on him. Donīt show Poland as poor victim, their hate and nationalism
showed its face also in 1945, and already 1918, or at the blood sunday of Bromberg 1939. I like modern Poles
and I donīt want any land back, I want respect and that they say, yes we did the same shit, sorry!
I have not more time, please write a bit shorter next time and stop the offending parts of Germany,
that have no sense for our discussion thx.
The red socialism was a cancer for many minds
It was possible (in 1918/1919) that instead of leadership in national socialist party he would be a leader in a communist party
What Hitler delivered was total war, humiliating defeat, mass destruction, 7 million dead Germans, occupation of half of Germany by Russia for decades, mass rape of millions of German women, permanent territorial loss, ethnic cleansing of millions of Germans and a genocidal shame that will hang over Germany for a thousand years.
That's worse than anything the country suffered after World War I.
if the arrogant winners wouldīve treaten the new democratic Germany with respect.
But their goal was to humiliate and destroy Germany as much as possible, this was poison
and it made the Germans hate democracy, since everything was blooming in the monarchy.
And I donīt know why you say Hitler made Germany strong and then caused war,
I did never say anything different, I said, he would not come to power without Versailles.
You should actually be up to date if you like history, if Germany wouldīve won the first world war
it wouldīve been better for the whole world in every way. The only reason the allied hated Germany
was envy. Envy for its success, they didnīt want that it dominates economically Europe.
And for the love of God, please don't be so nationalistic and assert that it would've been better if Germany won World War I without any evidence for it. I'm sure you'd impress the French if you really believe that.
It was a war that should've remained between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. Russia, Germany, France and Britain should never have become involved, but when they did, they should have signed treaty to end the war when it became apparent that months would turn into years.
some call it even a war that never really ended, that it was only a cease-fire and continued 1939.
And I agree, the german people were damaged for sth. a monarch did.
America promised a war without winners, but then they allowed the french government to do what they want.
The biggest mistake ever and the direct cause for the next war, yes the allied made the seed for it.
I donīt deny any german crimes, but I want to clarify, there was a story before why it came so far.
Sure no war wouldīve been better, but even the british historians say now, a victorious Kaiserreich wouldīve founded
an EU-like organisation much earlier and we would be technologically 20 or 30 years ahead. But they wanted to stop the rise
of Germany for any price. There was an article in our best science and history magazine.
Moon landing of the Germans latest in the 50s thanks to Mr. von Braun, computers and internet latest in teh 70s with the help of Mr. Zuse,
Babelsberg would be the movie metropole of the world and not Hollywood, since genius like Fritz Lang dominated the movie industry.
All that was taken from the Germans, a kind of people that created so much beauty and technology. 600.000 patents stolen after 1945,
the whole american military, space-programm and more is german technology. Itīs nothing about nationalism, itīs true.
While in Europe, we had our cities devastated, our lands occuped, our people slaughtered by invaders, our countries to rebuild. Our grandparents knew the terror and the pain, while Americans except their sent soldiers were living in a "quiet comfort" in their standing and not-occupied-by-a-tyrannical-invaders-army homes.
The burdens and sacrifices the Allied soldiers gave and endured will not be taken for granted, or forgotten. That is my word that I give.
Happy 69th V-E Day Anniversary everybody! Oh, and watch this! 3:39 through 3:48 is perhaps the defining moment of this great day! www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3FUdB…
Not only that, May 8th was also President Harry Truman's Birthday. I have no doubt that May 8, 1945 was the best Birthday of his life!
P.S. Today is also the 30th Anniversary of the first ever published Transformers comic book, making this day the true 30th Anniversary of the Transformers!
British Empire countries celebrated the actual day of the surrender (7th May) as VE Day
Britain and America celebrated it on 8th May
The Soviet Union celebrated it on the effective date of the surrender (9th May)